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Published on:

1st Aug 2025

Optimism Meets Elevation: Building a Creative Career with Tyler Cartier

In this episode, we delve into the creative journey of Tyler Cartier, a revered mentor and influential figure in the world of branding and design. Tyler shares his rich experiences working on high-profile projects including Microsoft, Amazon, and notably, the Space Needle. He discusses his unique approach to creativity and branding, particularly his memorable 'Space Lift' campaign for the Space Needle. The episode also covers Tyler's thoughts on the soulful essence of art, the limitations of AI in capturing true creativity, and the importance of remaining true to oneself. Finally, Tyler shares insights on transitioning into retirement while maintaining a creative spirit through painting and other endeavors, emphasizing the need for continuous personal growth and the power of sincere effort in all creative pursuits.

00:00 Introduction to Tyler Cartier

00:50 Tyler's Career Highlights

01:48 The Space Needle Project

05:42 Branding and Creativity Insights

10:17 Millstone Coffee and Creative Naming

12:25 The Art of Copywriting

16:05 AI vs. Human Creativity

20:00 Life After Retirement: Embracing Creativity

24:53 The Reality of Creative Work

25:34 The Tangibility of Starbucks vs. Software

26:21 The Challenge of Writing for Software

27:14 The Importance of Sincerity in Work

28:34 Exploring Art Contests and Cafe Art

30:34 The Joy of Sharing Art

31:21 Encouraging Creative Expression

33:36 Balancing Creativity and Marketing

40:39 Advice for a Fulfilling Career

41:49 Flipping the Switch: A Personal Transformation



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Transcript
Laura:

And welcome to Tyler Cartier.

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Frankly, this is not a lot

about paid media today.

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This is gonna be more focused on

you know, somebody I consider like a

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mentor and, you know, always looked

up to from a creative standpoint.

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And that's Tyler.

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Tyler worked at Strike Plate.

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He owned Stripe Plate for many, many years

and he's worked on all sorts of accounts.

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You know, Microsoft, Amazon,

Nordstrom metropolitan Market with me.

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Carter Subaru.

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Most recently the Space Needle.

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Oh, millstone Coffee.

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So yeah, we're gonna kind of

talk a little bit about that

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but now Tyler is just doing very select

work out there in the market, and he's

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doing lots of things that we would want to

do once we retire, because work doesn't.

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Yeah, we don't wanna work forever.

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I know I don't wanna work forever.

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I can't wait to be able to do what

Tyler's doing, which is, you know,

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you'll see, we'll just walk through it.

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But lots of different things.

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'cause when you're creative

you just can't help it.

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You just gotta do it.

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All right, Tyler, so tell us just a

little bit about like what's the number

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one project that you worked on that

you, I'm still gonna make you talk

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about the space Needle, but, that you

wanna talk about like a little bit.

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Tyler: Well, the Space Needle probably

is the one that I think used all the,

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like I say, the 64 box of crayons.

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You know, some, some spot projects.

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Rate eight, eight crayons.

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You know, you just kind of in and out.

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that was the whole deal, even

with the little sharpener in the

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back that had, actually, that's

64 box had the whole, whole thing.

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Laura: God, I, I envy you.

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Tyler: anyway.

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in 99, I, I was very graciously invited

to join the pitch for the Space Needle

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with Jack Anderson Hoel Anderson.

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So it was a Hoel Anderson.

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Through them, they invited me to join.

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So there were three of us, Jack and I

and another woman were there to pitch the

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space needle to you know, propose what we

could do for them and against three other.

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Pretty well known and very

highly regarded companies.

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And miraculously we got it.

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So in 99 and we started doing

branding for the Space Needle.

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This is before they had completely

redone the top house and we

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re renamed I renamed the, the.

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The restaurant up there is Sky City and

we did an entire branding campaign and

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that kept going up until really i'll, I'll

steal a project for them once in a while.

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It's probably been six to nine months

before, maybe even a little longer,

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probably a year since I've done anything.

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They put in the two, the double elevators.

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That was all done independently for me.

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But the Space Needle was just a

fantastic experience all the way

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around to par, pardon the pun.

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Laura: Did you do the big like sign that

was on it when it was getting renovated?

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Tyler: Yes.

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Laura: so cool.

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What did it say again?

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Tyler: Well, I'll, I'll come to that

because that kind of was the Coda, Coda

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Gras.

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Uh, so, so in about 2014, 15, 16, 17

area, it's kinda lost a little bit.

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They went a bit, did and did

a complete remodel upstairs,

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and they made a glass floor.

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So you could walk out and

then get the glass floor.

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And so during that time, I wanna say

it was a nine to 12 month remodel.

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And it's interesting because the

Space Needle was built in just

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over 12 months and 13 months.

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And a lot of people don't know this, and

I'm probably giving you a little more

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detail, but I always find it fascinating.

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The Space Needle was built on

an old site of a firehouse.

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So that Seattle Center property

was sort of owned by the city and

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then seated to the city or owned

by sort of the government because

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it was a sorting out area in World

War I for, for troops and whatnot.

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And I'm pretty sure I got my facts

here, and that was seated to the

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city of Seattle, which they made

the Seattle Center, but the space

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needles a private enterprise.

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So they bought that piece of property.

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Where the old firehouse was, and while

they were digging the foundation,

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they found an own horseshoe from where

the horses that used to pull the fire

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engines, which they put over, the,

put over the door of the construction.

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which I thought was always just

a really cool, neat, neat thing.

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And they built it in about 13 months.

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So the remodel was a little less

than that, if I'm not mistaken.

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And during that time it was kind

of an unsightly, I mean, just had

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a bunch of construction up there.

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And so I came up with this idea of

wrapping it and we wrapped about,

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wrapped it with the statement

of we're getting a space lift.

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And we had some graphics and people

really got a kick outta that.

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So we sort of turned a, a little

bit of a, you know, a, an eyesore

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or whatever, kind of a unique

thing into sort of a fun thing.

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And one night on Monday Night

Football, they were doing the fly

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in Seattle was at CenturyLink.

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Quest probably at the time they

do the fly in and the B roll.

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'cause they shot that earlier in the

day and they came past the Space Needle

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and they saw that and they commented

about it and they got a kick out of it.

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My wife's like, you're famous, you're

trying to, not really, not really,

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but it was probably the biggest

thrill I had that day that that week.

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So anyway, that was, that was a

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Laura: Yeah,

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Tyler: real

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fun thing.

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Laura: really big right now.

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Tyler: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then the thing about the space Needle

that I, I wanted to always stress, and

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it's been a while since I've really delved

into this, but I always try to find what

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I would say, and again, I don't profess

to be, I wanna start hearing by saying.

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I don't profess to be

the expert on everything.

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I just kind of have my way of doing

it and with the teams I'd work with

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and always with a really good group

of people, a lot of times it was their

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idea that we just sort of enhanced.

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And there's that old adage, which

I love and I like, I love to use it

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because it keeps you humble is a good,

a good idea, doesn't care who had it.

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I just love that expression.

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A good idea, doesn't care who had it.

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There's a good idea out there.

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Humble yourself to the fact that that's

a better idea and it'll make every

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everybody better, and more importantly,

it'll make the project better.

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So that, that said the Space Needle

was a fantastic experience that used

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all the branding elements and what we

had about the Space Needle that was

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so key is obviously we had elevation.

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That height and that viewpoint,

nobody else could touch it, so.

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The fact that it was this

mid-century that was the big thing,

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and it was Googie architecture.

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So in 62, Googie was a type of

architecture named after a restaurant

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in LA that had those mid modern shapes.

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And I, I still like that architecture.

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You see a lot of it in Palm Springs.

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So the Space Needle was really

an icon of Googie architecture.

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Much like Art Deco or Art Nouveau

googie architecture, mid-century has

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become a real icon of architecture

and it's still that clean.

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Unseemly lines are just

really outstanding.

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And that Space Needle

is now, was built in 62.

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So what is it, 63 years old?

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63 years

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old.

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That's still the most, it's a

spectacular, it doesn't show its age.

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There's a lot of high, high

elevated, you know, I think San

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Antonio has one, Toronto has one.

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They're all right.

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But the Space Needle is, is,

is, is just an icon of, of, of

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inter, of mid-century design.

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Spectacular.

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So we wanted to really keep that.

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Mid-century optimism.

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Mid-Century 62 was a real

time of mid-century optimism.

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It was before a lot of the,

the many things that made the

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sixties so tumultuous happened.

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People were looking towards the future.

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It was the spaced time.

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So there was, you saw it

in the, in the movies.

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You saw it in the cartoons.

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As a kid, you saw all things,

everything was space-based.

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So.

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Very optimistic, very clean.

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The future was whatever we wanna make it.

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So we always built on that optimism

for the space needle and the elevation.

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So we had the whole spirited sign

that really was our, our benchmark.

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I always call it.

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It's sort of the, it's the icon or

it's the, it's the, what I'm say

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the pledge you say, which you slap.

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You slap on the way out from onto

the field, from the locker room.

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You know, you slap that sign

wind today or whatever ours

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was.

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Optimism meets e elevation.

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Laura: Oh

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Tyler: Optimism meets elevation.

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So that was our inspiration.

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If it didn't fit that optimism

meets Elevation Credo.

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We didn't do it because it was, it

could be usurped by somebody else

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that was quintessentially a space

needle and you couldn't usurp it.

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So that was a fantastic,

and we still use that credo.

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And again, if you can get it down to

two, to three, to four words and not have

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to say it in a, in a, in a PowerPoint

presentation or something, that is your

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way point, I call it the burning coal.

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That is when you're out in the darkness

and your torch goes out, you come back to

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that optimism, meets inspiration, boom.

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Light your light, your torch again, and it

gives you that guidance to move forward.

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Laura: It's like a brand, your

brand mission or something?

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yeah.

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Tyler: It is,

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Laura: Statement

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Tyler: yeah.

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It's, it's that, it's the,

it's the burning coal.

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It is that focal point, that focal point.

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Always go back to that,

that that's your way point.

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It's like you don't know

where you're on your hike.

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You can always buy, get back to your car,

you know, always remember you can get,

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you eventually get back to your house, but

if you can get back to your car, you'll

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find out where you, you know, you can know

where you can go out into the outside and

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still kind of have that, that focal point.

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So the Space Needle again,

couldn't great people.

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Mary B, Karen Olson, Ron Vart, the CEO.

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Just really great people to work

with and always, it was a group

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effort and again, a good idea.

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Doesn't care who had it.

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A lot of times they'd credit me with

an idea that was theirs and I was

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perfectly happy to share that and and

appreciate that they'd brought that.

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'cause we were really for the best.

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And everybody, here's the

one last thing I'll say.

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Everybody loved the Space Needle.

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. We didn't have to be talked

into enjoying this process.

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We couldn't wait, you know?

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'cause again, it's a

world class and global.

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Icon.

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I keep using that term

so everybody knows it.

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Go to Paris, Bangkok,

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Bangladesh, anywhere they

know it's space needle.

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So then we were talking,

you mentioned Min Millstone.

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I'll just make a comment about Millstone.

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Millstone is kind of, was a, a whole

bean coffee company in Seattle.

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And really, again outstanding people

they just let us do our thing.

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They were from that.

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Mindset of, you guys know what

you're doing, we'll give you

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all the information you need.

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We'll wanna be involved, but you're the

experts and, and take it from there.

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And, and it was a fantastic experience.

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So they, we really had to educate

a lot of people about whole being.

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Coffees and bins.

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They were the first ones to do that.

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And supermarkets and it were,

they re exceptionally successful.

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And I, there's one anecdote from that

that I think is really a, a, a main

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reasons when I started getting to naming.

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Is they had a holiday blend

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Laura: Hmm

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Tyler: everybody else had

holiday, holiday blend.

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That time was Seattle Best

Coffee Milk Starbucks.

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Everybody had a holiday blend,

so they wanted to have something

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with a little more flare and

panache, but it couldn't be.

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It had to be sort of non-denominational.

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Had to just have the spirit of the

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season.

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So I just kind of, this was,

it was just kind of on the fly.

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I was walking down the hall and I was go

into another guy's office and I thought,

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oh, I think that's kind of a neat idea.

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So I poked my head in the

account executive's office and

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I said, how about Jingle Java?

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She goes, oh, I'll run it by him.

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They said, oh, we love it.

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That thing sold.

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It was just the name,

you know, holiday blend.

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The holidays was about a

six or eight number seller.

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Jingle Java number one, boom.

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It would same coffee, just the name.

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And again, it had that

alliteration, had that bounce,

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it had that kind of fun smile.

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It had that wink millstone

Coffee was very approachable.

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We wanted make sure, 'cause

you're buying whole beans,

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you've gotta grind them at home.

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What?

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So we wanted to make very much

approachable, and it had to have that

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little wink, that smile and jingle.

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Java delivered that.

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So those are, those are the little

subterranean elements going below that

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kind of the, the crest is that little

statement, that little name, but, but

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there's a lot of elements going on

below that, but that one kind of wrote

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itself that was low hanging coffee

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beans.

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Laura: that.

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I love it when it breaks itself.

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It just, just comes to you.

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I, one thing I remember with you is

that we were at, and this is just

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something that when you work with a

pro, you learn, you know, so much.

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And I remember being in the recording

studio for metropolitan Market, and

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we were doing pama, I believe it

was pama, and you were, you know.

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You had, first of all, your

copywriting was, you know, absolutely

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the best and, and still is.

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But you know, Dr, what was it?

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Dribble down your chin, sweetness

or goodness or something.

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It was just like, it was so descriptive

on that you could taste, you know,

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you could taste the sweetness of

the peach just based on your words.

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But then when, when we were trying

to, we were in a studio trying to get.

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The voice talent to say it just the

right way, and you had this tactic that

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I loved that was just like basically

taking all the pressure off that person.

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You would just say, okay, I

think we got what we need.

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You know what, just do it one

more time for, for, you know.

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Shit's a giggle.

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You know what I mean?

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Like

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for just just yeah, you just like, and

it just took all the, all the stress out

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of that per, they just like nailed it

and it was like, and then also do it.

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Can you smile when you do that?

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Tyler: Yeah.

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Laura: But those were two really

cool lessons that I learned,

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you know, that I still use today

when I'm talking to people like,

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Tyler: That's great.

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And I learned that from other pros.

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Trust me, I was not.

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The genesis for me, I learned that

through synthesizing smart people,

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watching them and listening and

learning, and that was a good one.

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One of the things I did come up

with, I have to say, that was

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it was to overcome where I could be, where

I could maybe have something missing was

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at the end of a meeting, a lot of times

sort of going to to, to creative meetings.

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I would always say, what is it?

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At the end of this meeting, I'd

always say, what is it you think

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you were trying to tell us?

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That I don't think we were listening

to or that maybe you don't think

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we heard correctly, and nine times

outta 10 a client will go, you know.

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I think you did well.

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There was one thing I think when I

mentioned blo, you know, whatever.

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You guys didn't take notes on that.

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I think that's real important.

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Great.

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Good.

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I'm glad we didn't miss that now because

we humbled ourself again to, to listen.

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And you gave us some great insights

because the next meeting you would've

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had that in the back of your head

and it would've been missing.

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So now we're good.

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And it's important 'cause you know your

business way better than we ever will.

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So that was a, a, an enlightening

thing to have to, to sort of

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say at the end of meetings.

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Laura: Yeah, I was, we, we had a

podcast recently with a research

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firm, hemispheres, and he was saying

that, that because for a living he

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has to get people to talk right.

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For focus groups and surveys and stuff.

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And he said that's the way to

do it, is like, what's the one

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thing you think we just saying?

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The one thing, you know,

it helps them saying.

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What are some things that

you know, you feel, you know,

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it's just like this one thing

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Tyler: Well, and

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Laura: in on it and,

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Tyler: That's the key is zeroing in.

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It's, it's, there is one thing that

we maybe didn't hear you and so

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you're sort of signaling to the client

that you don't have to be nice here.

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We may not have listened to you correctly,

so go ahead and just lay it on the line.

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So now you've established this

isn't done for an ulterior motive.

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This is done to really make

the product better and, and the

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system, and the solution better.

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But what's something that you really feel

passionate about that we may have missed?

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That can be a real good undercurrent.

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That helps.

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you said something about Met Market

and I, I'll just touch on that.

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I'm gonna wing this because this is off

the cuff, but it, I've been ruminating

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about AI and you know, what, aI is

gonna do in regard to copywriting and

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all kinds of design, and I think what

AI misses, and I haven't had a lot of

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experience with it, but my, my take is

that it's missing, and this is an easy

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thing to say, but the soulfulness, the,

the senses, it'll describe things, but

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it doesn't bring up memories because

it can't really conjure memories.

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It can't really, you know, if you're

talking about PAMA in the northwest.

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That's gonna feel a lot different than

it is gonna be like, you know, I don't

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know in Northeast Canada or something,

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or, or this, you know, it's, it's gonna

feel, it's gonna feel because it, it,

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you know that, that sensation, the

feeling, the taste, the smell, those

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kind of things, they can, again, they

describe it, but they're missing that.

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That little quirkiness that

brings that soulfulness

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into it, which, and I don't

know if that'll go away.

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It probably will more so as it goes

forward, but it's something I can, I

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think we can all still kind of tell AI

copy versus real and, and a YouTube video

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where you go, oh, this is a great city.

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Like if you wanna travel

and what, what's Paris like?

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And go, oh, that's AI

generated versus a, a

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Laura: Yes.

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Yes.

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that's what it is.

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That's what I was gonna say.

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The local feeling and the, and, and

the, you know, and just the right

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kind of pop, pop culture, if you're

making a reference or just the right

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amount of, 'cause they're, they're

not, they're not in our heads really.

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You know, and it's like, especially

when you're talking about, you

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know, a specific audience or

whatever, it's like, I feel like.

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You know, for example, I think I told you

I was in the acapella group and I've tried

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to, I've tried to get ideas from it, like,

you know, what are some things that Santa

362

:

Claus does , at the North Pole, right?

363

:

And so.

364

:

It would just be generic, but then I would

like try to prompt it to make it funny.

365

:

'cause my stuff is funny and

it just was never, ever good.

366

:

And I'm like, I guess I

gotta put the work in.

367

:

And I did.

368

:

But it's just, you know, it localizing

it making it have that, like you said,

369

:

that hook or whatever the, the, the

thing that really I don't know what

370

:

you called it, the smile, the nod, the,

the thing that makes people go, ah.

371

:

Tyler: when you were saying that, I

was thinking it's like a core, and

372

:

when you go back to Paris, if you see

an AI description of Paris versus,

373

:

say a woman who's walked around Paris

her whole life and knows it, and

374

:

there's just gonna be something that's

gonna come from that, that you can't.

375

:

You can't duplicate right yet.

376

:

You can't,

377

:

you can't

378

:

AI yet.

379

:

Laura: I'm just kidding.

380

:

Tyler: I don't know, maybe just the idea

of you know, a night where you didn't

381

:

get enough sleep and you see the rain

puddles and you see the, the, the, the,

382

:

you know, the, the reflection of the

arctic triumph in the, in the rain.

383

:

And you're thinking about how

much, how much your day's, how,

384

:

how long your day's gonna be.

385

:

Just something

386

:

Laura: Yeah.

387

:

Tyler: you know, that's how you

feel like when you go to work and

388

:

you know that what that feeling is.

389

:

Laura: I love that.

390

:

Tyler: We,

391

:

Laura: yeah, they're not

gonna do metaphor Cool.

392

:

Metaphors like that, or,

393

:

Tyler: they're just, they're just

not gonna have that, that honest,

394

:

like you say, say this woman is

mid, mid thirties, or whatever.

395

:

She is gonna have that real true.

396

:

Or somebody that grew up in Greenwich

Village, New York, or on the farm

397

:

in Oklahoma, they're just gonna

have a much more deeper, and they're

398

:

gonna go off, they're gonna go

off the beaten path a little bit

399

:

Laura: Yeah.

400

:

Tyler: that's gonna make you

feel like, oh yeah, that person.

401

:

That person really lived that it's

harder to do than to say, I mean, you

402

:

know, but, but I can tell you when you

write something and you have a deep

403

:

passion and, and appreciation for it,

something comes out of that, that you

404

:

can tell that that's not ai and that's

gonna be more and more important.

405

:

Anyway,

406

:

Laura: Yeah, let's talk a little, just a

little bit about what you're doing now.

407

:

A lot about it.

408

:

I saw last time we chatted, we had

coffee, and you had shown me some of

409

:

your art and I am just like, how do

you, you know, when you have time?

410

:

I always think about this,

like, if I had time, if I wasn't

411

:

working, what would I be doing?

412

:

Because I, you know, I

can't wait to retire.

413

:

That's gonna be great.

414

:

You are doing all that kind of creative

shit that you always think you're gonna

415

:

do when you retire and you're doing it.

416

:

You're not sitting at home watching tv.

417

:

You're not, still working all the time.

418

:

You're actually doing truly

creative things that are coming

419

:

from your soul that you have now

been able to put your attention to.

420

:

And now you're, you know,

writing books and, and painting

421

:

and selling really good art.

422

:

It's different and what is, yeah, tell

me a little bit about what that's like.

423

:

Tyler: Well, the briefest way I

could put it was I tell people, and

424

:

again, I'm not being falsely humble

here, I'm just telling you the truth.

425

:

When I write I say I, I

have to have total quiet.

426

:

It has to be really of space that I

feel comfortable, and it has to be quiet

427

:

because I have to concentrate so much.

428

:

I, I just have to, I just have to

use everything in my power to to,

429

:

to make it right when I paint.

430

:

Sirens can be going off.

431

:

I listen to a lot of music when I paint.

432

:

It's just much more freeing.

433

:

I don't have that concentration, so it

lets something in me that I didn't have.

434

:

So, There was a great writer and I

wish I could remember who it was,

435

:

but they said, oh, writing's easy.

436

:

You just open a vein and let it

bleed on the, on the keyboard.

437

:

You know, it's just, it's

just it's a tough thing to do.

438

:

Yeah, I mean, it's just you, you,

you're really pouring, you're literally

439

:

pouring your soul into it if you're,

you know, if you're writing novels.

440

:

And then just because apropos of nothing.

441

:

But I always love this quote where

Truman Capote read this one book, and he

442

:

said, that's not writing, that's typing.

443

:

Which I think is beautiful.

444

:

So writing, you know, you really

have to put a lot of effort into it.

445

:

Obviously what I'm trying

to say, but for art, I just.

446

:

Find something that takes me

to where I want to go and I'm

447

:

off and running, and again, I'm

just in a whole nother world and

448

:

it's a and and I think, I guess my

point is, there's two things I wanna say

449

:

here is I think you can, this is a key.

450

:

I think you can knit those things into.

451

:

As you, you can knit from your

working life into your retirement.

452

:

You don't have to do this.

453

:

A lot of people do this, and

they, they don't know where to go.

454

:

That's my take again,

this is just my take.

455

:

I think you can knit those in if you like,

if you like writing, maybe on a weekend

456

:

a couple of times you go to a, you go to

a coffee shop and you start the novel,

457

:

you start laying it out a little bit.

458

:

You, you start knitting that in.

459

:

You know, I was saying, I

think in our, our coffee.

460

:

You don't wanna just go from zero to

the off ramp because you're gonna get

461

:

passed and you might get rear-ended.

462

:

You wanna have some speed

going into the off ramp.

463

:

Laura: Yep.

464

:

Tyler: That way you've got some momentum

going to the off ramp and you have a place

465

:

to go versus just kind of pulling over to

the side of the road and standing there.

466

:

So that's my take.

467

:

And so with me painting, I,

I thought of this earlier.

468

:

When we were talking about the heart

and soul, I did a painting that just,

469

:

I'm, I'm really pleased to say, sold

in Edmonds at the Edmonds Art Festival.

470

:

it's a really cool art festival and

I've been really fortunate to be in

471

:

that a few years, and one sold like the

first day and I, I don't charge much.

472

:

That's another reason I don't.

473

:

Price.

474

:

My paintings, there's, there's

really good artists there.

475

:

I price mine like a marketing guy.

476

:

Like, yeah, I think

somebody would pay that.

477

:

But, But, But, that painting, I I was more

important for me to somebody that wanted

478

:

that painting and, and got it and liked it

479

:

and wanted it in their home.

480

:

, And what that painting did was, it

was called Road Trip Morning and

481

:

it was this diner and the shadows

were really long and you could

482

:

feel, you could feel that morning.

483

:

Where it's a, it's bright and

you didn't sleep that great.

484

:

You stayed at some hotel.

485

:

Maybe the pillow smelled weird.

486

:

You know, one of those hotels and

the, the, the, the shower, you know?

487

:

Laura: take your socks

488

:

Tyler: You don't take your socks off.

489

:

You got in the shower and you just

thought, I better not look anywhere.

490

:

I'm just gonna take a shower here.

491

:

And you got there and you got that cup

of coffee and the gal comes over and

492

:

there's music, there's country music a

little too loud, and she's a little brassy

493

:

and, and it's just, it's just got that,

everything's just really bright and the

494

:

shadows are really long 'cause it's early

and you got a long day ahead of you.

495

:

And I, I just have been there.

496

:

We've all kind of been on those road

trips, just kind of fun road trips.

497

:

But you have that morning

and that spoke meant it, it.

498

:

I had a guy call me.

499

:

He said, if you do anything

more like that, 'cause he

500

:

described it to me on the phone.

501

:

I said, that's exactly

what I was doing to do.

502

:

And he said, if you have, he, he

was he saw that it had sold, but

503

:

he called me and he said you know,

I'd like to buy something else

504

:

if you have something like that.

505

:

And I thought, you know,

and this is again, reality.

506

:

I don't know.

507

:

I, I, it has to be real.

508

:

So I, I don't have anything yet, so I

can't, I can't just whip something out.

509

:

It'll have to be something that, again,

I can't do it if it's not real for

510

:

me on that.

511

:

But that's kind of how, that's kind

of how I I try to paint and, you

512

:

know, if I, if there's something

that, anyway, I made my point.

513

:

Laura: No, it's, as opposed to

copywriting where you had to, where

514

:

you're writing on demand for things

that in sometimes, like you were saying,

515

:

sometimes when you do software, it's

like, there's only only so many fucking

516

:

ways that I could say innovative, fast,

517

:

Tyler: Yeah, it's very well put.

518

:

I think that segues to a key point.

519

:

Software is a, I always say you

gotta write through a piece of glass.

520

:

Software is just a piece of glass.

521

:

It's just something

behind a piece of glass.

522

:

Starbucks is the real deal.

523

:

You go in, you smell it, you taste it.

524

:

The

525

:

heat.

526

:

It's the heat of the cup.

527

:

If the cup isn't hot enough,

you know, the brand can fail

528

:

just by when you pick it up.

529

:

You have none of these things.

530

:

With software,

531

:

you Eye appeal.

532

:

You see the people, you hear the music,

Starbucks, the music in the background has

533

:

a lot to do with the ambience, you know,

so, so the Starbucks is the full gamut.

534

:

I always use that as an example.

535

:

Laura: a good one.

536

:

Tyler: It, it really is the full gamut.

537

:

It's sight, smell, hearing, taste.

538

:

and feel, because again, you know

that coffee isn't hot enough or if

539

:

it's not cold enough or whatever.

540

:

So now how do you write a piece of

software for, I don't know, some

541

:

digital dude ad that makes things

faster and you're talking through a

542

:

piece of glass and it's on a website,

543

:

there's no touching.

544

:

Laura: like soul or culture or

545

:

Tyler: Exactly right.

546

:

You have to do a lot of analogies

because otherwise, what do you say?

547

:

So you're talking now, you've got a

piece of thin glass between you and that

548

:

software.

549

:

And I would say that that's true

about all websites actually, because

550

:

even a Starbucks website, you don't

have the, the, the store experience.

551

:

You have a piece of glass,

you have to write that brand

552

:

through that piece of glass.

553

:

You have to make that brand real

through that filter, that that

554

:

thin slice of glass or a phone.

555

:

You know, or whatever,

556

:

Laura: Yeah.

557

:

Tyler: that's where you have to make

that magic translate so that they go

558

:

past that portal and into that brand.

559

:

Laura: Oh, this is so great.

560

:

Tyler: I'm bloviating, let's be

561

:

honest, but um, I really do

believe that it isn't hard for me.

562

:

I don't have to look at notes

because, you know, what's the old

563

:

line again, this wasn't mine at all.

564

:

You know?

565

:

I think it was.

566

:

I think it was Mark Twain.

567

:

Always tell the truth.

568

:

You don't have to remember your lies.

569

:

You know,

570

:

Laura: So true.

571

:

Tyler: just, it's so true.

572

:

You might as well tell the truth.

573

:

It's a heck of a lot.

574

:

Easy to

575

:

Laura: It's so easy.

576

:

Tyler: as you get older.

577

:

Laura: I know.

578

:

I'm too truthful, but that

said, yeah, I don't have to, I

579

:

don't have to remember anything.

580

:

Tyler: Yeah, I mean, again if,

if you know it's real you know,

581

:

you're on the right track.

582

:

If you're trying to write something that

you think somebody else wants you to do

583

:

or that you don't think the brand can do.

584

:

And it's easier to say when you're

self-employed because you can walk away.

585

:

I, I, I didn't do it often, but

I didn't do it very often at all.

586

:

But once in a while you see

that the client, you know, they

587

:

wanted to be something that they

weren't, that was impossible.

588

:

Not because, I had some big ethical

concerns as much as it just, I, I.

589

:

You know what?

590

:

You're not gonna be an NFL pro player

when you can't catch a football.

591

:

So

592

:

Laura: Right.

593

:

Tyler: let's talk about what you really

are, because you're obviously doing okay.

594

:

You're in business.

595

:

Let's be real here.

596

:

So

597

:

Laura: I love that.

598

:

Ugh.

599

:

Exactly.

600

:

I mean, it could apply that to everything.

601

:

. Tyler: But let me say this, I,

I'm gonna give a couple options

602

:

for people to think about

603

:

nowadays, if you have any art

skills at all, and, and you like

604

:

art, there's a new resource.

605

:

And this, this has to do with a lot

of different creative pursuits, but

606

:

there's a research called Cafe Art.

607

:

And it's a clearinghouse.

608

:

That'll tell you all the art contests

going on all over the country, and you

609

:

can filter it by, if your painting could

be sculpture, could be photography.

610

:

I mean, the, the, the visual arts can

be a, a myriad of different things.

611

:

And so I would filter it painting,

and it can be, if it's a regional.

612

:

Application and it's in

Florida, you're not eligible.

613

:

I'm in Washington, so obviously I

couldn't do Florida, but if I do

614

:

regional, you know, Northwest, it'll

tell you like the northwest it'll tell

615

:

you if there's national campaigns 'cause

anywhere, anywhere in the, in the nation.

616

:

And so I filter it and it'll

get me down to maybe 40 or 50.

617

:

And then I'll go, you know,

this one I just did a painting.

618

:

Of a,

619

:

guy and of his son watching a baseball

game, but I knew that, again, the

620

:

marketing, you know, that doesn't hurt

to . Have some marketing ability with

621

:

your art, you know, because you gotta,

you gotta dovetail your art with what?

622

:

The, the contest or the, the.

623

:

The festival is asking for, so

this was summertime activities.

624

:

So I have a painting that a guy

and his son watching a baseball

625

:

game, so I applied to that.

626

:

That's in Providence, Rhode Island.

627

:

Now I haven't heard back, but

I've been been, I had worked

628

:

in Sedona, long Beach, Newport

629

:

Beach, long Island, Philadelphia,

and you get in these shows and

630

:

then, and again, I price them.

631

:

I was gonna say, I price 'em reasonably

because it's, I'm not in it to make money.

632

:

Trust me.

633

:

I don't have the talent that

I can make money at art.

634

:

I can make a few dollars here and there,

but I couldn't make a living at it.

635

:

I mean, it's just, it's not for that.

636

:

Truly, truly it is to have somebody

kind of appreciate it, get a, get

637

:

a joy from it and put it on their

wall, and then they send me a photo

638

:

and I can see it in their home.

639

:

The people that bought my artwork

in Edmonds, I happen to run into

640

:

them and she sent me this, I'll

send it to you after the podcast.

641

:

She sent me the artwork in their home.

642

:

It's like, this is so great.

643

:

Something I did is in their house and they

like it, so that's really why I do it.

644

:

But Cafe Art gives you that opportunity.

645

:

There's all kinds of ones.

646

:

I know you, Laura, are into music.

647

:

There's ones for music,

there's, there's photography.

648

:

Like I said, there's

649

:

sculpture.

650

:

Everything from knitting to, you

know, whatever you pursue creatively.

651

:

, There's resources online now

that you can get that work out

652

:

there and get into festivals.

653

:

And again, locally now I've been into

a number of local markets and whatnot.

654

:

Saturday markets through that

655

:

Laura: I love that because, you know,

like I think of this from my voice, right?

656

:

And my voice.

657

:

I love my voice.

658

:

I've always had good

feedback from my voice.

659

:

It's my expression and

it's a huge expression.

660

:

And it, and when I perform, I always

try to think of it like a gift,

661

:

like I'm giving a gift and I, I.

662

:

Yeah, I, I, I bet, and this was Kurt

Vonnegut who said this, but he said, you

663

:

know, because of the way that, that, that

culture is now, and, and that mass media

664

:

is now, we don't have regular singers.

665

:

You know, just good singers.

666

:

They're not produced and everything.

667

:

They're just like the local town singer.

668

:

We don't have that anymore.

669

:

Everybody's set to the standard

of Whitney Houston and blah, blah,

670

:

blah, and you know what I mean?

671

:

And so we're missing out on that.

672

:

And I think, you know, well

Spotify and all these different

673

:

things have really opened it up.

674

:

But I'm wondering, yeah, if I

submitted, maybe somebody out there

675

:

would love my voice, you know?

676

:

And you know, and so that's interesting.

677

:

Tyler: Well, that, that happened

wasn't that Billy Eilish and her

678

:

brother that did a did something in

679

:

their

680

:

Laura: is that what they did?

681

:

Tyler: Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can.

682

:

You can maybe double check that, but

I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

683

:

Well, I would like to ask you is there

anything we've said or I've said that

684

:

you, you feel like like some more

detail on or that we may have missed

685

:

that you would like to hear more about?

686

:

Kinda like I said earlier,

687

:

Lisa: Yeah, you're using

your client line on me.

688

:

I, I really resonated with your

statements around sincerity.

689

:

So I'm, I am the local AI curmudgeon

for Double Z, so I appreciated

690

:

your side on that situation.

691

:

Laura: Yeah, I, I think with, I remember

when I was in school just trying to

692

:

come up with concepts for you know,

with copywriting and, and we had to

693

:

come up with three really good concepts

for, for my professor, and it was

694

:

just learning the creative process.

695

:

You know, stepping away,

coming back, stepping away,

696

:

Tyler: Yeah.

697

:

Mm-hmm.

698

:

Laura: then it's like you finally get it.

699

:

But it's like a lot of bandwidth.

700

:

Tyler: Yes.

701

:

Laura: a lot of bandwidth.

702

:

Tyler: I would find that you gotta, this

is a longer conversation, maybe it's

703

:

another podcast because I think you toggle

between, let's say right brain, left brain

704

:

is just a seventies or eighties thing.

705

:

That wasn't really true.

706

:

But it, it works as a model.

707

:

You know, if your left brain

is, I think it's right.

708

:

Brain's more creative, left

brain's more analytical.

709

:

Just use that as a model

with creativity in marketing.

710

:

Marketing.

711

:

Not necessarily in music.

712

:

Music, no, not necessarily.

713

:

Or often.

714

:

Not books.

715

:

Painting.

716

:

No, but with marketing, you've gotta

toggle between the two because it's not

717

:

there for you to be, it's not there to pat

yourself on the back of a good campaign.

718

:

You're there to make the client

successful and their business

719

:

successful, and it may not be the

most erudite thing you'd wanna write.

720

:

It might be the best thing for their

client base based on their, their product.

721

:

So you've gotta toggle between two.

722

:

You've gotta keep on

that well-defined path.

723

:

There was a, a, again, a great quote.

724

:

I think it was Buckminster

Fuller, but I could be wrong.

725

:

But he said, I used to use this

in meetings all the time, and I'd

726

:

always make sure they didn't, it

wasn't my comment, but give me the

727

:

freedom of a well-defined path.

728

:

Laura: Hmm.

729

:

Tyler: to me, was bigger than

anything else that I could talk

730

:

about in my, in, in the career I had.

731

:

Give me the freedom of

a well-defined path.

732

:

So a lot of times if you give people,

if, especially as you get older, not

733

:

necessarily with children, but if you get

older, you give somebody a blank piece

734

:

of paper and you say, draw something.

735

:

This is how it is proven.

736

:

They're like, ah, what?

737

:

But if I say draw a unicorn, flying over

a rainbow, you know, with a, you know,

738

:

whatever below, boom, you can now have

the freedom of a well-defined path, and

739

:

yours is gonna look different than yours

and everybody's gonna have different

740

:

interpretation, That really is, that

is really a key point in marketing.

741

:

Set up your goals, set

up the product, wins,

742

:

Laura: Yeah.

743

:

What's success in all that

744

:

Tyler: well, the unique

selling proposition.

745

:

What is it that you deliver

that keeps you successful?

746

:

Ideally, it'll be something big,

but sometimes it's, it's a little

747

:

tiny thing in terms of, you

know, a competitive advantage.

748

:

It's not that massive.

749

:

You're not the only coffee company,

so why you, you know, and then.

750

:

You know, whatever those things

that you think will bring in more

751

:

customers, define those and then

work your creativity off that.

752

:

That's your well-defined path.

753

:

Keep coming back to that.

754

:

Keep coming back to that, and you'll stay.

755

:

You won't keep wandering off and

all of a sudden you have campaign.

756

:

No idea why that didn't work.

757

:

Well, it didn't because you

didn't follow that well-defined

758

:

path, and I don't feel that way.

759

:

This is again, just my opinion.

760

:

Like I started off this conversation.

761

:

It's just my opinion, but I don't.

762

:

Do that with art.

763

:

And I don't know that you do that

with music so much when you're just

764

:

wanting to be just totally creative.

765

:

Laura: Oh, right.

766

:

Tyler: But I, I'll be a

little bit contradictory

767

:

when I sell market art fairs.

768

:

When I actually go and

have a little booth.

769

:

I do do things that I

know people will buy.

770

:

So, so that is kind of a, that's

just, again, why do I do that?

771

:

Because my wife and I

have just a great time.

772

:

We meet great people and people

send me pictures of my little

773

:

pieces of art.

774

:

And you get to share it

775

:

you get to share it,

776

:

Yep.

777

:

And I, I, I'm sorry, but

that's exactly what it is.

778

:

And you know, you know, we make a few

bucks, it pays for our trip and whatever.

779

:

Sometimes it pays for part

doesn't pay for that beautiful

780

:

hotel room that we stayed in

781

:

Laura: all springs.

782

:

Tyler: and the, and the socks

I had to go through just to

783

:

come in and out of that place.

784

:

But, you know, it covers a

few shekels here and there

785

:

and, and you had a good time.

786

:

And you're, , again, you know, one

of my credos is create don't observe.

787

:

You know, don't sit in the audience.

788

:

Get up on stage.

789

:

That doesn't mean to be a narcissist

and have everybody pay attention.

790

:

It just means you have a

gift and you can create that.

791

:

When you watch other people's

gifts, you're just, you're just

792

:

in the audience now, that's fine.

793

:

That can be inspiring and

that can be great concert.

794

:

Great.

795

:

Go to great museum.

796

:

Absolutely, but don't live that

all the time, in my opinion.

797

:

Again, my opinion, don't

live that all the time.

798

:

Get up there and get on

the stage once in a while.

799

:

Share your gift,

800

:

Laura: Yep.

801

:

Yep.

802

:

Tyler: give yourself permission.

803

:

Laura: Yeah.

804

:

To express yourself and give yourself

permission to express yourself.

805

:

And it's, you know, it's surprising

how, I have so many friends

806

:

that, they have good voices

807

:

Tyler: absolutely.

808

:

Laura: they just don't share and,

you know, they're intimidated.

809

:

And I think, yeah, if you just

express yourself, it's like

810

:

dance, like no one's watching

811

:

Tyler: Absolutely.

812

:

That's right.

813

:

There's something that comes

out of you that will glo, you

814

:

know, will build on itself.

815

:

I know this sounds a little, you

know, rah rah, but it really is true.

816

:

Why not?

817

:

Why not?

818

:

Why not?

819

:

You know, why not?

820

:

Why not try it?

821

:

What do you got to lose?

822

:

And by the way, that momentum will

guide you into a much more, in my, in

823

:

my opinion, a much more fulfilling and

enriching and purpose-filled retirement

824

:

because you're doing stuff that gives,

that you can really bring outta yourself.

825

:

So you, you don't ever really feel like

you just kind of come up against this.

826

:

Barrier.

827

:

Like, now what do I do?

828

:

I'm, I'm standing here and now I'm, I'm

just kind of at the edge of this desert.

829

:

You've laid out things, you've laid

out all kinds of little trails to

830

:

follow, and, and, and you've got 'em.

831

:

You know, this is a cliche,

but it is absolutely true.

832

:

It's a cliche, , like a lot , in art.

833

:

We went to that Edmonds art festival.

834

:

They have a kids' room and their art in

there is phenomenal and I guarantee you.

835

:

50% of those kids or more will

probably be 25 years old and

836

:

say, I don't, I can't draw.

837

:

I don't know how to do anything.

838

:

Yes, you do.

839

:

You absolutely can.

840

:

You just allowed yourself,

and here's where I was tough.

841

:

I I could be tough.

842

:

you could say, well, you know, the

world kind of beat it outta me.

843

:

Yeah.

844

:

That's an excuse You've allowed

yourself to be talked out of it.

845

:

Be strong, believe in yourself.

846

:

So, you know, don't buy into that.

847

:

But, you know, it may not be

that you're, it's gonna be, look,

848

:

I'm trying to paint a quote.

849

:

Picasso said it, it took him a lifetime

to learn how to draw like a child.

850

:

That's Picasso.

851

:

So I'm trying to paint

a lot looser and not so.

852

:

You know, realistic, and I'm really

struggling to do that, , so when you

853

:

don't think you can paint, you're

starting there, you're starting where

854

:

I'd like to go, and That's no kidding,

855

:

Laura: Mm

856

:

Tyler: loose.

857

:

Laura: mm

858

:

Tyler: don't try to be perfect.

859

:

Just how it interprets to you.

860

:

Those

861

:

Laura: Oh, I

862

:

love that.

863

:

Tyler: those are real magical

things to see, you know.

864

:

Laura: It's almost like you've answered

the question that Lisa does at the end

865

:

of every podcast, but we're still going

she's still going to ask it, right, Lisa?

866

:

Lisa: Yes.

867

:

And see above is a an okay answer,

but if you could give yourself back

868

:

at the beginning of your career one

piece of advice, what would it be?

869

:

Tyler: Don't settle.

870

:

A lot of times I would work

on projects and stayed in.

871

:

A situation longer than I probably

should have because I, I lack confidence

872

:

or I, I just settled into a routine.

873

:

I think that fits.

874

:

I probably would've liked to have

thought about going to a bigger

875

:

city and trying a big agency.

876

:

But the more I think about

it, that might've been a

877

:

whole different life for me.

878

:

And I'm pretty, I'm very blessed with the

life I have, so I don't know about that,

879

:

but, don't settle, I think is the key.

880

:

that doesn't, mean being overconfident

that you're better, but it just

881

:

means that, you know, if you

feel like you've done as much as

882

:

you can in that, that situation,

883

:

move on.

884

:

Push yourself

885

:

Laura: yourself.

886

:

Yeah.

887

:

stagnation, I guess, is what I,

888

:

Tyler: I, I probably did that

up till about, I was about 32 or

889

:

so.

890

:

I call it flipping the switch.

891

:

That's, I guess, the

last thing I'll leave.

892

:

That's actually a book I wanted

to write, so I'm spoiling that.

893

:

But you know, on a, on a service

panel for electricity, there's all

894

:

kinds of little circuit breakers,

you know, circuit breakers.

895

:

Sometimes you can flip a

couple circuit breakers.

896

:

Maybe that's exercise, or maybe

that's your diet, or maybe that's,

897

:

you know, reaching out to people that.

898

:

That you need to be better contact with.

899

:

Your circuit breaker

has, has flipped over.

900

:

You need to flip that back and get better.

901

:

Sometimes you need to take

that knife switch and just chin

902

:

and, and, and that's, that's kind

of what I did about 32 years old.

903

:

I decided on a lot of levels.

904

:

I was just kind of treading water.

905

:

I was doing okay as actually some

people would say it was doing okay,

906

:

but I didn't wanna be my age now

and look back and go, you know, I

907

:

just, I kind of, I kind of floated, I

908

:

kind of, I, I call 'em water leafs.

909

:

You just kind of take

where the stream goes,

910

:

you know, you're a water leaf, you just

kind of go wherever the stream takes you.

911

:

So I flipped the switch.

912

:

I just literally looked

at this piece of paper.

913

:

I wrote down eight things.

914

:

Somebody came to my office and

said, Hey, we're going to lunch.

915

:

You wanna join us with

they're great friends?

916

:

And I said, you know what?

917

:

I'm just gonna stay here for

a minute and eat in today.

918

:

And I looked at that list for about

a half hour, 45 minutes, and I just,

919

:

something slipped, just clicked in my

920

:

Laura: Huh.

921

:

Tyler: and I flipped a switch.

922

:

And I said, no more, no more of this, no

more of that, more of this, more of that.

923

:

Laura: Hmm.

924

:

Integrity is what that is.

925

:

I think when you're meaning integrity is,

to me, is when you're true to yourself

926

:

you can look at yourself in the, you know,

you can, you could look yourself and say,

927

:

this is, this is what I should be doing.

928

:

This is

929

:

Tyler: Y Yeah, I don't think you can.

930

:

I don't think you have to be

so in love with yourself that

931

:

you can't kick your own butt

932

:

, And so I just decided I'm not

happy with what I'm doing here.

933

:

On a lot of levels.

934

:

I mean, , I wasn't off on anything major

by any means, but, I just needed to

935

:

reorient about four or five things, and I

did, and that day forward, it literally,

936

:

it literally, the knife Mitch went up and

all kinds of things started happening.

937

:

And it wasn't overnight, but

it just, it was a, a big deal.

938

:

And ideally you don't have to

flip the whole knife switch, you

939

:

know, the knife, the big blade.

940

:

You can just, you can say, you know what?

941

:

I am not really happy

with my exercise routine.

942

:

I'm just seeming to

943

:

Laura: Mm-hmm.

944

:

Tyler: every make time for it.

945

:

gotta make time for it.

946

:

Okay?

947

:

Toggle that one over

948

:

Laura: Mm-hmm.

949

:

Tyler: on it.

950

:

You know, your, your watch.

951

:

It's gonna make you

952

:

honor that.

953

:

Laura: thank you so much, Tyler.

954

:

We are probably going to

have to have you on again.

955

:

You're gonna be a, a regular guest.

956

:

So

957

:

Tyler: you know?

958

:

I'm kidding.

959

:

I'm just teasing.

960

:

Laura: I know it feels,

it's so, I, I don't know.

961

:

I just feel like you have

so much to, to offer.

962

:

And I know our audience being

marketing directors they struggle

963

:

so much with dealing with.

964

:

You know, trying to come up with

things themselves, hiring other

965

:

people, and to just get a perspective

from someone like you, it's, it's,

966

:

you know, it's just super valuable.

967

:

So thank

968

:

Tyler: Well, thank you.

969

:

I, I really enjoyed it.

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About the Podcast

The Paid Media Playbook
Unlocking the Secrets of Successful Digital Marketing Strategies
Welcome to The Paid Media Playbook — where marketing leaders share what’s really working.

‍Each episode, we go beyond paid media to explore the strategies, insights, and behind-the-scenes lessons shaping modern marketing. From brand building to measurement, comms to creative, no topic is off-limits. You’ll hear from a diverse mix of Marketing Directors, Creators, Researchers, Agency Leaders, and Founders — all pushing the edge of what’s possible in their fields. Whether you're leading a marketing team or just love smart marketing conversations, this show is your playbook for what’s next.

About your hosts

Laura Szczes

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Paid Media Agency Owner with over 25 years of Paid Media Strategy Experience. Based in Seattle and talking about Paid Media, Marketing, Clients, and the Pacific Northwest.

Lisa Wekellis

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